Amazon Growth in the AI Era: Listings, LTV, and AMC

Key takeaways

• Amazon's recommendations are decided before the ad runs. A study Jon cited, covering 12,000 Alexa for Shopping queries across 2,000+ brands, found 63.9% of picks fell outside the organic top 10, and only 14.3% had sponsored ads running.
• Jon said the typical listing scores about 69 out of 100 on COSMO semantic mapping and should be in the 90s. A listing needs four things to be recommended: technical mapping, buyer Q&A coverage, back-end eligibility and audience fit.
• Intentwise: Amazon Marketing Cloud is an underused data source that ties every ad and shopping event to a user ID. Compare first touch with last touch before deciding where to spend, as in a Fire TV example that last touch had undervalued.
• Levanta: judge affiliate and creator commissions by lifetime value, not one order. In its example, a 15% payout margin on a $320 adjusted lifetime value supports a commission of up to 48%.
• Jon's baseline for any listing: check sessions, niche rank and conversion rate, then run the free AI Readiness Score to see where the listing falls short.

Welcome and introductions

All right, welcome. Welcome. Pretty pumped about today. You know, we've got three good three good conversations going to happen today between us. You know, some pretty powerful technologies in our space with Intentwise and Levanta being part of today's webinar. So it's going to be a good conversation, guys. I'm I'm really excited about it. Let us know as you join. I know there's a bunch of you today. So I'd love to hear from you in the chat. Let us know where you are calling in from. We also have I believe Evo, thank you for helping us. I believe we're going to have a little poll at the top there.

So if you see the poll give us your answer as well on the poll so you know we get some insight into you know everything on your side. Rolando, what's up? Thank you for all the help as well on your side. So thank you Rlando. And guys, don't be shy. Let's let's hear from you. We want to make sure that we are really engaging and answering your questions. You know, we've got some real experts here to chat through today's topic. So, today is Amazon's growth in the AI era. We're going to be talking about structured listing engineering. We're going to be talking about LTV, AMC, a whole bunch there.

But, you know, let's do a quick welcome while everyone's coming. Deborah, always good to see you there. Thank you, Deborah, from Texas. Hopefully, the rain is not too crazy by you. Or maybe it's done. Shane, what's happening? You want to do a quick intro and just tell us what you're what you're talking about today?

Yeah. No. What? Thanks, John, for having me on. I'm usually based out of San Diego, but, happened to be on many in Minneapolis with some family obligations and this is how it looks in the summer. So, but in turn wise what you know we are what we're trying to do here is from a brand's perspective we all know that marketplace commerce is dependent on a lot of signals that tend to be pretty fragmented advertising retail Amazon marketing cloud so on and so forth we've been on a mission to build a unified AI ready data foundation and then on top of that also help with advertising execution Today's conversation is going to be about Amazon Marketing Cloud.

A super important asset that Amazon has exposed to all advertisers, but yet it is pretty dramatically underleveraged, I would say. So, we'll get into that in a bit.

Awesome. Yeah, dude. I'm super excited and, you know, I've been seeing a lot of the stuff that you have been doing and just how you know, as a technology software set, you're embracing the AI side you know, and super cool. So, I'm I'm excited about that. Richie, what's happening? Where are you right now? And give us a quick high level on what you're gonna be covering.

Yeah. So I'm in beautiful New York City. I can hear the sirens right outside my house. Actually, I was hoping you don't have to hear them. But yeah, I'm Richie. I'm the vice president of marketing here at Lavanta. You may have heard of us. But if you haven't, we are an affiliate creator platform for brands that sell across Amazon, Shopify, and Walmart. Most of you probably do sell on Amazon, so we'll focus mostly there. But today I'm actually going to be talking quickly about how you should be looking at your marketing channels. And this is not just specific to creators and affiliates, but pretty much all channels.

And that's through the lens of LTV and why it's important. But you'll get to hear more about the specifics. And feel free to ask any questions.

Cool. Yeah. And I'm going to be talking a lot about structured listing engineering and, you know, if you structure things in the right way, how a good AI can actually get the signals from that and use it. And that AI being Alexa for Shopping COSMO we'll be talking a little bit about that. I'll be starting mine off with a little bit of some data sharing from some latest publications which I think is really interesting. So again hi guys see a bunch of people coming in here. Keep it coming. Questions please drop them in here. The way we're going to roll today this is you know one of our favorite series that has really good responses from our combined audiences.

It's it's around you know looking behind the Amazon curtain really sharing true expertise from people in the space right and we obviously have some great experts today so that's our goal is to share and educate and share on that front but the questions will obviously help with the education as well so keep the questions coming it can be anything you've got real experts here that can help you with your business over the next 45 minutes to an hour we keep it pretty slick right I'm going to chat for 10 to 15 minutes pass it over to Shrenath and then we'll pass over to Richie.

We'll answer questions as we go and we'll leave some time for Q&A at the end, but I'm not dragging this out for an hour and a half, two hours, don't worry, to the presenters. I know you appreciate that and I'm sure the listeners as well really appreciate as well. So cool. All right, let's get going. So, I'm going to jump in here. Again, answer the poll. There might be some assets in there. I see some questions coming in. So, keep that coming. I'm going to share my screen and get going. Let's let's roll. And again, Richie and Shanath, if you have questions as we go, you guys are more than welcome to bring up your questions as well.

I'm going to get my screen going. One second and make sure that in All right, Eva, can you remove that poll that's sitting in the screen? Is that Not sure exactly why it's sitting right there, but it's kind of in the Yeah, there we go. Perfect. Now we can we can see the guys and we can roll with it. Okay. I got the questions on the right. I'm going to get going. Let's click through here. Okay. So, you know, if you don't know ZonGuru, you know, we've been in the space for a few years now. We have, you know, a collection of data intelligence tools, but really we're we're we're geared for this Amazon AI moment that's been happening right now.

Why structured listings matter for Amazon’s AI

Our strength is in you know understanding Amazon's algorithms and helping you with better discoverability, rank and conversion. We have some new tools out around this AI moment happening on Amazon with Alexa for Shopping and with you know COSMO and how to better rank and get discovered with this intelligent algorithm that's now in place. We have over 500 brands using our new Helix product which is you know has a lot of first in the space around content optimization for the algorithm and we have over 5,000 plus reports run around scoring your listings for Alexa for Shopping and for COSMO and I'll share those links as well.

So we have a lot of data in the space and seeing the impact of if you actually structure your listings in the right way how that helps you with discoverability and with conversion which are the most important things so what happens when structured listing engineering data meets AI that can actually use it right and we're talking specifically about the intelligence of COSMO and Alexa for Shopping so I'll be talking a little bit about that later on but I want to start off with usually what I like to have is an unpopular opinion. And the one I have for today which relates to the data I'm going to show you in a second is rank alone doesn't win Amazon anymore.

Recommendation does and recommendation is decided before the ad ever runs. So you know I 90% agree with this. Obviously you know in the recommendation side which I'm talking about conversational search like Alexa for Shopping ads are now becoming important in there but it is not the main driver of how you can get recommended right and so really understanding that there is this new kind of shelf that we call around the conversational side and how you get recommended by the intelligent algorithm and things that you need to do to take advantage of the opportunity is absolutely critical.

So this is some stats, right? So I'm sure Richie, you guys saw this last week, but u marketplace pulse you know showcased a study that was done. I think it was done over 2,000 brands, 12,000 Alexa for Shopping queries, things like you know you know instead of like queen mattress, it was like what is the best queen mattress, right? Looking for recommendations through the Alexa for Shopping conversations. And I was pretty blown away by some of the stats that were shown there. This one here was incredible. This is part of our thesis as well, right? And we see it, but 63.9% of the picks that were made in the recommendations by Alexa for Shopping were outside of the top 10, right, of organic rank, right?

So, we see this a lot, right? You can do a search like that, Queen Mattress, and you'll see the organic rank and uses the cheapest products at the top, etc. You do it with Alexa for Shopping and you're getting qual better quality, better types of products that are being recommended, right? 40.9% were outside of the visible page one results and what's interesting is only 14.3% of the ones that were recommended actually had ads sponsored ads running the rest were really like having organic rank right so it was it was a pretty interesting bunch of stats and I think the important thing there to understand is you know this intelligent algorithm COSMO that drives that's driving this AI experience the recommendations Alexa for Shopping you know it's it's looking, it can be intelligent at how it recommends and it's looking for that conversation from you or the signals from your content so it can better match you, right?

And if you're not providing the signals and the rich data that it needs to be recommended, you're missing out on that recommendation, right? And this is obviously totally clear here that this that this is what's happening, right? So the impact of this new channel is absolutely being felt within the space and that came through on a separate study as well presented by commerce IQ around prime day and it was basically saying hey like it's what we see right sessions are down in general like obviously you see that on Google with AI recommendations but even within you know with the impact of Alexa for Shopping which they attribute this to is that now there's less sessions that you're getting around your search results pages, right?

And but when they get to your page, because the decision is already being made before they get to your PDP, conversion is up, right? The recommendations being made, the decision is 80% made before they get into the PDP. So, you know, your PDP's job is to make sure that you're sending the rich text to the algorithm and then obviously to help with connection and conversion and clearly your images there are really critical in helping with the final conversion including the price, right? But even price can be recommended up front. So, really interesting to see the impact of AI in the space, right?

Alexa for Shopping, COSMO and shopper recommendations

This is clearly a big thing. We've talked about this 370 million shoppers. And by the way, guys, I didn't start my timer, so I'm going to make sure that I put this on. And just keep me keep me I'll put 10 minutes here because I know I'm in you know, 370 million shoppers already using Alexa for Shopping. 6 billion projected. We know that this 20 July 27th change to the title is coming. That's clearly a move to have more structured data from Amazon. That's why they did it. Nothing. It's not for the user. So that they can clean things up and they can use AI to better recommend stuff.

And obviously the branding of Alexa for Shopping back in May 13, right? So now we have these three shelves, right? We have rank which is clearly the search results page is not going away. That's you know you know keyword intent based searches. There's the ad side of it, right? And that is certainly starting to bleed into the recommendation side. I'm sure you're going to talk more about that as well. And that's going to grow even more. They're clearly not going to miss out on that opportunity. But, you have this left hand side which is like, hey, this is the stuff that we know, but the recommendation era is truly an opportunity.

And it doesn't necessarily mean it's it's a paid opportunity, right? If you can really structure your content in the right way and be the first movers, you will get that recommendation. We saw that from those results. 40% are not in the top 10, but they're getting recommended, right? That's also part and parcel of people some people actually optimizing their content and others that are just sitting pretty at the top not yet. And we see that with the with the COSMO readiness reports all the time, right? So how do you actually you know what is the AI reading?

It's reading the COSMO side, right? This there's a there's a technical mapping to that and it's certainly you know everything else that we've done before like keyword optimization obviously not keyword stuffing sales velocity all of those kind of things are important and then you have this buyer Q&A Alexa for Shopping side and this is this is from all the research that we see and the and the reporting the biggest gap right if you don't know how to reverse engineer and make sure that you're answering the right common questions around researching categories by decision-m and then even some of the longtail questions there.

If you can't structure your content in the right way, you're going to miss out on it connecting the dots and making sure that you are the recommendation, right? There's four things you should recommend. Sorry, optimize for semantic coverage. I'll show you that in a second. The technical side, we do that a lot with keywords, Q&A coverage, back-end eligibility, and then audience fit. So, there's the about you part of Amazon now as well. So, you see that in results, right? Where they are profiling your actual account and then recommending it based on your interests, right?

And so the more you can understand your target audiences and optimize for the different types of avatars, the better chance you have of showing up. This is the kind of scores this is accurate. Right? Now we're seeing on this the technical semantic product knowledge mapping about a 69 out of 100. Honestly, that's below average like 70, you know, 75 80. You should be in the 90s on that side with technical mapping. And then the biggest gap is on the on the buy Q&A side. So if you're not structuring and making sure that you're answering the right questions, that's where the biggest gap is.

And if you improve that, that's where you can get the recommendation, right? So this is important. How do you actually look at that? There's different ways. We have this report here.COSMO rs. We'll drop that link in the chat as well. You can run the free reports. It'll give you your score, but it'll also then break down like on the technical mapping, how do you how do you score on the bio Q&A, how are you scoring? And then below this, you know, you'll actually I'll show you quickly if you want. Let's see if it comes up. I think I have one up here. Yes. Below that will actually tell you how to improve it.

Running the free AI Readiness Score

Here's your title that you need to change, right? The character count. It'll give you the solution on that. But then for all the areas that you weak, it'll tell you where to improve, right? So that's definitely something if you haven't run it, go ahead and run that report. That's a free report to really understand like hey, how well are you actually optimized right now. Then what you can do is actually jump in and look at the solution, right? So the solution is the structured listing engineering. We have a product called Helix. If you want to try it out, sign up.

It's, you know, you can run your brands, your products. They're all free. You just pay for the credit at the end for the transformation. This is the technical mapping that we will map before. I've shown this before. I'm not going to dive into this too much. Not here to kind of just overly demo the product. The bio Q&A we this is a lot of testing and you know years of how to understand to reverse engineer the buyer Q&A side which we do. The Helix you know certainly will help you with creating your brand your brand tone importantly around positioning and how to position your product which helps with the conversion and how do you communicate the right things of what customers actually want.

And then we structure your content and your listing and your image side for better AI readability and conversion at the end of the day. And we get some amazing results from that. This is the kind of score. This is the Hule brand. It was at 54 and now it's 97. You can see that inside of the product. I'll give you a link to sign up for the for the Helix product at the end. If you want to try that out, you can certainly jump in and just start testing it. We also have on the Helix side, we have MCP access. I know strenth I know you're big with that as well. But we you know you have a UI and you have your data.

Structured data as the moat: a live example

Your data obviously in the technology world today is more of your moat. Certainly the UI is a little bit but you can now you know go beyond just the UI of the actual product. And with MCP access there's a whole bunch of other things you can do for your own personal use cases or additional use cases. You know, we can do things like re reformatting you know, for other platforms outside of Amazon. You can pull brand strategy documents if you want. I've got all of this in a MCP workshop I did. And obviously you can even do images from our actual prompts. We give you the prompts and the solution on the listing side, but you can certainly through MCP.

This took me seven minutes to run. This was Hule, which is a 1 point, you know, I sold for 1.1 billion or something. This is their current stack. You can just run it and you can get a brand new stack of images and A+ content very easily if you want to run that through the MCP. I always like to show the image on because you know it's pretty cool to see u just the strategy of like you know how things are created like we have a very important focus on the narrative that's told in the images because it's now so important right 80% of the decision is made before you get into the PDP the PDP is to validate they look at the images you buy with your eyes what's the narrative so the hook the promise the proof the moment the experience the trust we bring this through in this narrative that's told through out there and strategically understanding how to position your right, that it's not just 40 grams of protein.

It's actually a full complete nutrition like that was a critical thing getting things from reviews, right? So, you'll see you know, this is wild because I ran this obviously on a on a brand that's got pretty good images, but when you run it on some of the other ones that are not that great, it's pretty wild to see the final solution. So, you can get the image controllers. I'll give you a link and actually in the posteinar follow-up, you'll get a link to all of our templates on the image controllers. You can even actually see it inside of you know this is our platform right where you run all your brands you can run the products the transformations and your MCP access and your actual set essententral can be connected right here as well right so and actually if you go into the Helix framework right here you'll be able to see all of the MCP libraries in here as well right we have a whole bunch of MCP stuff in here as well so once you get in you can check that out as well okay.

I'm almost at time right now. I hope you know the education part up front of sharing the stats was to make sure that you to help with a penny drop, right? Like this is such a critical thing to do now that shelf is growing. And if you optimize listings, you get results like this, right? Increase in sessions. Even though sessions overall are going down, just by changing that, you're getting the recommendation. Your sessions are going up 18% conversion rate, 13% niche rank. If you want an offer on this, you can get 25% off, for your credits as you purchase in the next 48 hours.

It's on we'll drop that in the chat as well. Try that out. But, you know, just start with the readiness report, run a few free optimizations to see what it looks like. You know, look at the results on that, see what you should optimize, and then you can do it yourself or jump into Helix and it will do it for you both on the content and image side. It's incredible to see you know with those tools and the power of even a connection to ChatGPT or MCP what that can do for your overall structured listing and your content that is now you know sending the right signals to obviously AI the AI shelf but obviously helping with the ad side and your typical organic search results as well right so it's going to help across the board for sure if you get in there and get that done and then by the way if you want access to the tempered library and the workshop.

You just literally screenshot that and or just use your phone and you can get straight into that. It's free and you can download all of those on the back end as well. Good. That's my time guys. I hope that was helpful. I know there's some questions in there. I'll have a look as we jump in and I'll look at some of those questions and we'll certainly address it at the end as well. But yeah Shernath, what is happening? Thanks, John. Let me just go ahead and share my screen before I dive into my presentation. And let me know,

Questions on shopping agents and sponsored ads

While you do that, I was going to ask you, John, do you feel like with, you know, the lack of AI visibility, two things is like, you know, maybe some underdogs got some opportunities that they weren't able to do with traditional search. And then two, I guess those folks that were, you know, ranking number one, but were maybe not showing up in the AI visibility, like did you guys feel pressure to spend more on ads because of the lack of that traffic or that loss traffic?

Yeah. You know, on the first one, yes, I think I think we're seeing it across the board like we have a lot of like just from our brands, right? A lot of like midsellers, right? Who are always you know trace chasing the mecca of page one across a bunch of terms and they've done optimizations you know and we see that improvements in everything rank obviously sessions and then conversion rate right and I think it's just there's a whole bunch of things happening there one is you know because of this intelligent algorithm you don't have to over stuff your listing full of you know gobbledygook that doesn't make any sense right you can actually create a listing that makes sense that connects with users that semantically places keywords in the right way.

You have this beautiful listing that can actually breathe and connect and then you have your images that goes with it. So you're getting all the rank and you're getting the exposure and through the product you know the technical knowledge graph it's actually semantically mapping you to even more keywords than you potentially would have had. So we're seeing an overall improvement there but you now you're getting the recommendation on Alexa. So yes, we see that improvement. So this is the opportunity now like so many brands are still not doing what they need to do and you can do it before everyone else right so that's important and top brands yeah I mean there's always that like we don't understand why year-over-year we down right like how do we do more you know pushing more on PBC is certainly you know they see that as well so yeah I agree with both of those points

John I had one other quick question. You know, today I think if you're u on-site search experience on Amazon versus through Alexa for Shopping, it is different and there's a lot of conversation about preparing for those two in two different ways. But if you were to assume that Amazon is going to get the power of LLMs into the traditional search experience too, do you see a world where these two just completely converge and we're all having just one conversation? Yeah, it's an interesting an interesting thought and we think about it all the time and we see Amazon testing this all the time, right?

Like I've shared previously like there's searches that I'll do on my mobile and it will just literally load Alexa for Shopping directly without showing the search results page right so we see that happening we see in Alexa for Shopping you know how many products they're starting to recommend some sometimes it's kind of looking like a search results page inside of Alexa for Shopping right obviously you have sponsored posts starting to happen in there we don't see summaries like on Google yet right but I Those are all things that Amazon is going to test.

And they're testing aggressively and constantly, right? They haven't in my view they haven't moved away from the traditional search results page as quickly as I thought it would have and I bet it's a lot to do with you know when they you know they when they test they've got to make sure they're making the money on the back end and you know there you know obviously sellers are being looked after right and I think the general shopper who comes onto Amazon is still that very intentbased shopper right it's like hey I want this I just type it in you know I get it and I and I move forward right and so I think if they're not going to move away from that traditional kind of search results too quickly especially with intent based searching you know on my side you know just my personal experience because I'm always involved like I'm I'm using Alexa for Shopping a lot more because I actually find it more efficient and a better quality experience than the than the old traditional search results page especially if I'm kind of not sold on a specific product that I that I'm going to look for right but before Alexa for Shopping went live I actually was having better experiences with Rufus than I was with Alexa for Shopping, you know, because of this about you and how it's it's it's kind of brought in.

I don't think they've figured it out yet, right? So, it's a long answer, but I think they're going to keep testing and I think that world is going to collide more if they get it right and you know, and by right, Amazon is making more money on the back end, right? That's what that's what's going to drive it. Yeah.

Yeah. Makes sense.

Well, should I just dive into my

Intentwise: Amazon Marketing Cloud and lifetime value

Man. Yeah. Thank you for the questions, guys. I see them coming through. Keep them rolling. You know, Shri is going to share a bunch of stuff right now. So, I'm sure there's going to be a lot of questions here, guys, and he's he's well versed in this area. So, this is your chance to get your questions in.

Well, thank you everyone. Hopefully, you can see my screen here. Like I shared in the intro call at Intentwise our singular mission is when you think about marketplace commerce all the signals whether it's advertising re retail or shopper intelligence they tend to be pretty fragmented even within a channel like Amazon but if you extend that to other channels like Tik Tok and Google and Meta it's even more complicated. So we have been in a path to build the most robust AI ready cross channel data foundation for brands of brands and agencies operating on marketplaces.

So today we bring in Amazon, Walmart, Instacart, CRIO, Google, Meta, Tik Tok data sets in, we collect it, harmonize it and then the way the way we delivered value is we're sending trustable data pipes to folks. Folks are leveraging our dashboards. We also have an MCP server now in place where people are asking ad hoc questions, building out dashboards, building out PowerPoint decks. That's what we'll continue to do. Of course, Amazon Marketing Cloud is a very critical component of that. I'll talk through why a little bit of our own background with AMC.

We actually co-developed a solution with Amazon a little while back and we certainly have operationalized hundreds of AMC instances and through that we have just learned a ton. One key learning is that given the nature of the product it remains underutilized. What I want to try and do in the next 10 to 15 minutes convince you as to why it's important. And I'm sure the audience is at varying degrees of adoption but that'll be my focus. So let's dive in. I want to put this in the context of when you cut through the noise for any brand that is wanting to drive growth on marketplace.

There's about five signals at the end that you care about. One is from a reach perspective are you actually growing and reaching net new people we call that new to brand. Once you reach them are you capturing the demand that's conversion rate right once you capture the demand like are you bringing back those customers to drive and increase lifetime value are you doing it profitably I've introduced I've shared a couple of metrics here which is lifetime value and profit over ad spend. Note that I'm not saying rorowaz or I'm not saying a cost. I'm saying profit over ad spend.

And then finally the way this engine grows over time is that your cost of acquiring those customers has to be in line with where it needs to be for your business. So new to brand conversion rate lifetime value profit over ad spend customer acquisition cost those are critical metrics. If you cut through the noise these are the metrics you I'm sure care about today. But here's the challenge. Three of those five metrics require you to have access to data that is at the individual customer and shopper level. Okay? Otherwise, you don't know how to calculate NT new to brand.

You don't know how to calculate lifetime value. But where do these signals exist? This is exactly where Amazon marketing cloud comes in. Right? Amazon Marketing Cloud is the only place where you can you have performance metrics down to the shopper level. Let me peel the layer a little bit and walk through a basic kind of view of what actually sits inside Amazon Marketing Cloud. If you are not fully aware here is a madeup shopper journey, right? Let's say I'm buying a vacuum cleaner or any other product. You might have seen a DSP impression, maybe clicked on an ad, clicked on a couple of sponsored ads, added to a wish list, added to a cart, and maybe bought the product.

All this could have taken, I don't know, a week, two weeks, a month. That's typically how shopping works in most cases. The way to think about Amazon marketing cloud is every single event all the way from impression to conversion is now available in Amazon marketing cloud and it is available at the individual shopper level. For example, I shop regularly on Amazon. I have a unique ID. It's called user ID. And every one of these events is captured within Amazon marketing cloud tied to me. Okay. A simple way to think about it is AMC is a combination of shoppers like you and me and all their interactions.

Interactions fall under two buckets. Advertising events and shopping events. Examples of advertising events, searches, impressions, clicks, conversions. Examples of shopping events. I won't read every one of these, but you get the idea. Pretty much anything and everything a shopper is doing has been captured in AMC. A quick note on the data sets, right? So there's of course ads data that came free by default every time you in you have an AMC instance. By the way, if anyone on this audience is doing advertising and do not have access to AMC, that's probably the first thing you should go address.

It's available for free to you in console. This there's a second data set which is sorry non-advertising data. All your organic sales and a few other things. It used to be paid. Good news for everyone here. I think it was a month ago or a month and a half ago. They made this data set free for the rest of the year. And the third data set is for those of you for example that might have a DTOC presence. You might have questions around, hey, I want to understand the overlap of my DTOC with Amazon. Or you might say, look, I don't want to target I don't want to spend my money on all the folks that are already my customers on my DTOC side.

You have the ability to upload your first party data from the DTOC channel and much more deeply what the overlaps are and also use it in advertising that is an example of advertiser uploaded data. You can also upload things like product categorizations and whatever custom data you have because some of that AMC will not have. Amazon will not know your product categorizations. So those are the stuff you can ingest and get the outputs you want in the language that makes sense to Again, what makes AMC data set unique compared to let's say sponsored ad seller central vendor central DSP is user ID.

Every single event has a user ID tied to it. So then you can stitch journeys together. You can do a lot of things because of it. One quick note before I dive into actual use cases. One of the most valuable things that has happened with AMC is you get five years of retail purchase data down to the shopper. Five years. Okay. Now in the audience, if you're a 3P brand, you had kind of a way to get to this. You had seller fulfillment reports that had the hash buyer ID. But then that data was never tied to ads. So this data you can now tie to ads. If you're a one P brand in the audience, you had no access to any shopper level data.

So this is a gold mine for you. It refreshes daily and it's actually free till the end of the year. It used to cost 500 bucks a month, but it's now free till the end of the year. I would jump on this. So let's talk about okay, so you have all these shopper level signals. So why should you care? There's fundamentally two kinds of use cases that AMC makes possible. One is you can go answer some interesting questions that you may have been clamoring to answer that you couldn't before. And two, you can go create very fine-tuned custom audiences for your business.

Measuring first touch and last touch around big sales events

For those of you that have been advertising on Amazon, you've seen the evolution. It went from auto campaigns to keyword targeting then to product targeting and now audience targeting is that big lever and Amazon will continue to invest in making audiences a key lever and hence it's important to build the muscle around AMC and understand how to custom craft audiences that work for your specific Let's dive into use cases around each. When it comes to measurement, there's lots of different questions you can answer, but I am going to call out like three critical ones.

One is especially around tent pole events with Black Friday, Cyber Monday or even Prime Day. When should I deploy my dollars? Is it before, during, after? Second is what paths are driving the best outcomes for me so you can double down on them. And third and perhaps the most critical is you're spending all this money. Are you acquiring highquality customers? So let's dive in into each. I'm going to show some visuals. So when should I deploy my ad dollars is a great question. Aim and typically during 10pole events you've got a pre-event, during and postevent phases with different goals.

But to understand like when should you deploy this? I would go look at your previous 10pole events and really look at what is called a tentpole overlap analysis. It's a standard report in the console. What you get is a spreadsheet on the intern platform. We've done visualization around it. Literally, as you can see on the left are different combinations. So by cohorts of people, for example, the way to read the first row is that's a row where people got exposed to ads in the leadup to the event as well as event day. But this gives you an idea of what type of exposures could drive the best outcomes for you.

I would recommend you do that with the previous Prime Day, the previous Black Friday, Cyber Monday as you decide what you want to do with the upcoming temple events. What parts drive the best outcomes? I've got three flavors. One is the standard by campaign type. AMC allows you to look at your paths to conversion and figure out what paths are driving the best outcome. Is DSP doing anything for you. Because all the standard reporting is all last touch. So this will give you a better understanding of what parts make the most sense. This one is another derivative of path analysis where we now have views where that'll tell you by product where are people abandoning the funnel?

How many people abandoned the detail page view? How many people abandoned after add to cart? In fact, we have it by as well. A it's super helpful to understand where the drop offs are. Maybe there's a content problem. And B, it's a great jump off point to go create audiences. You could say, look, go create the audience of people who saw my product or added the product to the wish list and let me go create a lookalike audience. So, great jump off point for audience And then the last one I want to cover on path analysis is last touch versus first touch. Standard reporting again is last touch.

But I highly recommend you compare last touch versus first touch. You often see surprises here. There are campaigns that they may not be getting appropriate credit. Here's a view where last touch was attributing revenue to these three com campaigns but the first touch changed that and as is attributing a lot more revenue to DSP fire TV campaigns. In fact, this happened specifically with a brand where the last versus first touch revealed that the Fire TV is doing a lot more than what it looks like and the brand actually doubled spend on Fire TV ads. And finally like the quality of customers.

The way I we think about this is there's two parts to it. What is the quality of first touch? New to brand versus new to brand revenue per customer acquisition cost. And what's long-term value? AMC allows us to construct LTV or at least get close to constructing LTV versus CAC ratio. This is kind of the holy grail of anyone that spends ad dollars. And you want that ratio to be in a good place. Ideally three or above, you're doing well. Anything below, you may want to be optimizing where you're deploying your ad dollars. There's more details here that you'll see in the slide deck, but in the interest of time, I'll kind of I'll accelerate through this.

But the point I want to make here is often times the best as especially during 10 polls are not the ones that are driving the most and AMC can allow you to unpack that. John, how am I doing on time?

You good? Yeah, you have a couple more minutes. Yeah, no worries.

Audiences, AMC data and custom services

Cool. So, that is measurement, right? So, I want to jump into audiences. Again, there's lots and lots of things you can do, but what I'd recommend is think about audience creation in three buckets. Acquisition focused, conversion focused, and retention focused. Right? So, and I have examples on each bucket. So, under acquisition things like and these are examples only and I've called out the most used ones in purple audiences exposed to your DSP campaigns but never bought great audience to create lookalikes of high value customers in the last 180 days.

U I'm not going to read every example here but you get the idea. On the conversion side, people have added to cart but not purchased. On the retention side, high value. Now, high value could be defined by you, right? Maybe it's lifetime value based, maybe it's frequency of purchase base, whatever it might be. Creating that audience, targeting them in sponsored products, especially using bid boosting can do wonders for you. U here's a quick example of a case study. Lavadza, which is a coffee company that I'm sure everyone's familiar with. They were getting a lot more exposure out of DSP than sponsored ads, which makes sense.

So what we did was we helped them construct the DSP audience that hasn't yet bought and targeted them through sponsored ads and bid boost on them by about 30%. We saw a 10 percentage point lift almost 30% of where they were at in new brand sales in the on the campaigns that we use the bid boosting on. We've done similar things here. A couple more case studies will become available to you when we share the deck. In the interest of time, I'll skip with these, but just very quickly, how can Intentwise help you? There's a couple of things we do. Like I said before, we co-developed a solution with Amazon.

We have a pretty sophisticated tech platform that does a number of things that the AMC console doesn't do. Lots of pre-built insights, queries, audiences, ability to schedule them, pipeline the data out, build introduce your own product categorizations and brand subbrand classifications, easy upload of firstparty data, and last but not least, we have a MCP server where either from cloud or copilot chat GPD, you can start asking questions and get back AMC Now AMC is such a thing where if I threw a tech platform at you, sometimes you may not know where to go after a certain point.

So we do have custom services that include custom query authoring, dashboard buildout, so on and so forth. The and you know the here's my email, here is the QR code. If you want to you know get a demo or want to chat more, then we'll also share it in the in the comments. But I want to leave you with this. Maybe you want to screenshot this, but three critical measurement questions that AMC can answer that you should all be asking and three buckets of audiences that you should be thinking about creating and targeting and experimenting with. And all this is only possible because of AMC.

And that is because AMC is the only place to get signals at the shopper level. There's no place else to get with that. yeah, dude. I mean, that's yeah, I really hope everyone's everyone's listening there and that was that was some very epic insights. You know, if you think of it from a marketing you know, what I covered is like on the content side is the baseline, right? Like if your baseline isn't good, you know, everything you do on top of that is not going to work as well. But like yes, there's opportunity in the baseline with getting discovered, right?

And organic and discoverability AI. But you know this idea of data insights to drive your decision- making and attribution which is always the mecca of marketing. You know this is where people need to listen up and take it on right because majority of sellers are going to be overwhelmed by that and looking at AMC and they're just going to you know get the white noise and they're not going to know how to how to really use that. But if you can really understand how to use user tent wise are going to help you guys with that you know and you can really see the impact of that there's massive opportunity there that people are missing out on.

So yeah very cool that's you know if you want to drive your business and you're sitting there struggling this AMC deep dive will absolutely you know unlock a lot for you on the business side. So very cool. Thanks Shanath Richie let's go for it man.

Absolutely. Thanks for sharing those insights, Jat. Like brings me back my to my old adtech days of like talking

Attribution for the last 10 years, man. It's like it's still people need to solve it, you know,

Levanta: affiliate and creator commissions compared with PPC

DSPs and SSPs and RTBs and all the fun stuff that goes with that. All right, let me share my screen, folks.

I don't want to bore all our fun acronyms. But I am going to bring some acronyms to the conversation. That's LTV. So before the end of the session folks, you're going to the my goal is to make sure that you have a different point of view of how you could be looking at, you know, your marketing channels. And I'm going to use affiliate and creator marketing as an example of a channel because it is sometimes misunderstood sometimes, especially with sellers, you know, and I understand like margins are getting a lot tighter. You know, there's a lot of pressure points in your business that you have very little control over, i.e.

Like tariffs. We've talked about AI visibility and many other things that you're probably like h I how do I actually make money on this right and then ad costs are going up and you know you're now fighting for attention and so affiliates and creators I know for some folks might be a new space you may have tested it at one point maybe you saw success maybe you didn't get success because you weren't maybe because there weren't creators that were interested you like what's going on and so what we found is that in the affiliate creator space specifically people sometimes feel challenged of being able to offer a higher commission.

So, if you're not familiar with the commission, it's essentially a percentage of the sale that you are going to pay out to the affiliate or the creator for helping you drive a sale. So, you're not paying for impressions or clicks like other types of channels, which are still just as important. It's a low-risk, high return channel. But it does involve a lot of humans, so it's not guaranteed that they'll actually promote your product. So, this is going to help you kind of unlock how to think about working with creators. But also you can take the same framework and apply it to other channels like paid media.

Etc. So, as I mentioned, I will be talking about it in a comparison of PPC. It is not in any ways to negate the value or quality of PPC. It's just that it's a different channel. It's a different way of economics and it's really important that you have that lens. I'm not telling you to turn off CPC in any capacity. They live in harmony with each other and they're very important. Just that very similar to how you saw with tree knots path to purchase and that fict example is like no paths are linear and so you want to make sure that you are getting as much surface area with your brand out there as possible to drive aware full funnel of visibility and of course that measurement as well so going back to this particular slide the challenge I don't want to call it a problem but challenge historically a lot of brands sellers etc when they're looking at how they're looking at setting either their commissions or looking at their paid ads benchmarks they're generally looking at it from the lens of unit economics, right?

Your TACoS, your DSP target, what am I willing to pay to get that customer, your CAC, at least from the lens of the ad itself from Last Touch. On the affiliate side, you might apply that same methodology. And what ends up happening is that you're not as competitive as other brands. For example, we'll use a supplements brands for the duration of this sess session. As you know, supplement brands generally have fairly larger margins, just fairly a lot more affordable product. And so you might see some supplements brands sometimes give up to 50% in some cases even as high as 100% on the commission.

You're just like what? They're crazy. But there's a strategy behind that. And so I just want to kind of compare the two channels here. Again, this is not to negate sponsored ads or PPC. They're just as important, but they're just a different type of engagement with a consumer or shopper. So the way I like to think about it, PPC or paid ads is very much like your faucet. The second that you turn that budget off or that faucet off, the traffic also goes off. With creator and affiliates, they're posting content for you on an ongoing basis given that they're willing to post that content.

And they're helping you drive awareness and impressions and of course traffic to your listing or your PDP without you actually ever having to pay for that. And even if you stopped working with that creator, guess what? That content lives on forever and has a long shelf life. So, it helps drive visibility. With PPC, it's a brand talking about yourself. On the creator side, it's a third party, which is a little bit more trusted. Again, as I've already mentioned, with PPC, you're paying for the clicks, sometimes impressions, you know, it ranges depending on what kind of DSP or what type of ad model you're using.

With creators, you're only paying for the sale when it's made and completed. Again, as I mentioned earlier, like a faucet, the second you turn that off, the creative goes off. With creators, that stays on forever. And with creators, there are also various types of formats of creators you can work with. So you can work with listical. So that serves a specific purpose within the buying path to purchase traditional creators and influencers like Tik Tok, Instagram, YouTube, etc. To large publishers like tier one publishers. So think like Wire Cutter, CNN, Buzzfeed.

So you're actually able to push and work with various types of creators. And I use creators as an umbrella term for different ways to get your brand out there in a more organic looking way than traditional PPC ads, but they do work with each other quite harmoniously. Also it gives you a competitive edge, especially in crowded markets because you have a human talking about your product versus yourself. And of course, as you know, with more sellers on Amazon and other marketplaces, it's becoming more saturated, especially as the holidays come, demand's going to be a lot higher.

So that means that your ad costs are going to increase because demand is higher as well. Sometimes you'll also have repeat customers click on your branded ads and that's not generally good because you want to drive new to brand type sales. Sorry that was a long-winded comparison, but I just want to walk you through that so you have a lens of understanding of that because I know we're limited on time. So, let's take this journey here. I won't spend too much time on here. This is very similar to Shriant's journey, but really compares what you might see for a PPC only journey versus a creator journey and what that means for your wallet and your margins here.

Particularly, you might see a shopper, you know, search for best air purifier. They see your ad, they click on it, you've already paid at that point in the path to purchase, and maybe they make the purchase. We're not sure, but then with the creator side, you know, they maybe search for it. Maybe they did see an ad but didn't click on it. They saw you featured in three different listicles. They maybe saw a Tik Tok creator talk about you. And maybe they had some multiple trusted recommendations from within their home or friends or network. But you didn't have to pay for a single dollar of any of those impressions.

You only had to pay for it when the actual conversion happened on Amazon. And so, you know, it comes with a premium when it comes to this like trust is the premium and it's really valuable here. And this is also validates why brands are willing to pay creators a little bit more than what you might pay on paid ads. Again, higher return, low risk. We actually ran an AI research study and actually would love to share that with you guys where we surveyed a thousand US consumers back in November of last year. So it's getting a little stale there, but we want to rerun it here pretty soon.

But of those we wanted to make sure everybody has used AI in some capacity to do product research or discovery. And 93% reported they trust reviews. 87% still discover products even though they're using AI to do research and discovery through these human-based content channels. So blog, social, etc. Generally creators. And usually close to 62% are making that purchase within 24 hours. So, you got to make those seven plus touch points happen really quickly. And 78% were super neutral or actually very happy when that creator disclosed that they were working with a brand.

So, because they know that they're putting hashtag ad, it doesn't deter shoppers from not wanting to give you trust or willing to make that purchase. And so, I want to now move our lens back into the LTV. Why is this important then to be willing to look at it from an LTV perspective? Because you're going to be like, I'm taking a risk. I'm definitely paying higher amounts for this customer. But let me show you the math here. So, this is a very simplified version. I just want to make sure we're very clear on that. You can probably nail me nail me to the cross because you're like, "Oh, you forgot FBA fees and platform fees and this fee." I've removed that because I know everyone sell can sell in different places.

Also, there's a brand referral bonus. There's a lot of other inputs, but I just want to simplify this equation here. So, let's assume you have a $30 product. You can afford you're giving a 30% commission. That's $9. But you know that the LTV or the number of times your customer purchases in their lifetime is about five times. So, that's about a $150 LTV. And so that's really changes the entire equation of why this is important. And I'm actually going to show you what's next. So, as I mentioned, new to brand is really important. And what we found to date is that 87% which is another same similar stat to the last page, but 87% of sales at least that are happening on our platform are new to brand.

And if you're not familiar with new to brand, those are purchases happening from customers that have not purchased from you within the last 12 months. That is an Amazon specific KPI. But you can also think about it as net new customers as well if you're okay with that. And so looking at how you look at unit economics versus LTV, we're going to take a very simple AOV of $100 on the same product. And let's assume you have a you can afford up to 15% on that payout. And so immediately when you're thinking it from unit economics on that single order, you can afford up to $15%.

You're like, "Oh my god, that doesn't make me competitive in the supplements category." But if you look at it from the LTV perspective and bringing NTV or new to brand into the equation, let's run it through. So, $100 AOV, you know, they're going to make four purchases, which is different from the last side, which is five. So you now know that your lifetime value is generally about $400, but we want to now customize that to this channel. So, let's say that you know your NTB and Levanta in our platform, we do show your NTB sales and Halo Effect sales too, by the way.

So, you have an idea of what your NTB is. So, if you do your adjusted LTB, that brings it down to $320. And that same 15% margin that you can afford on a single order or what you were willing to pay on a commission is actually $48 max commission. So that means you can technically actually afford 48% commission. Now you are taking a gamble, but looking at the unit econ looking at the economics here, you can actually afford that because that customer is most likely going to stay and you've also adjusted it to your LT your adjusted LTV based on your new brand through the channel itself.

So this actually makes you competitive against other supplements brands as well. And so that's really important here folks. And I'm sure you're working with a lot of finance teams that are like, "Hey, I want to know what dollar in, dollar out, but also it's also important to look at your marketing through the lens of LTV." Even for us at Lavant on our marketing team, we look at things not only through unit economics, but we also look at it from a LTV perspective as well because those customers do grow over time. And that's where life cycle marketing can play a really important role where that can grow that LTV and that means your marketing team can spend more to acquire customers So, you might be like, "Okay, cool.

Is affiliate right for your brand?

Affiliate, that's great. Am I ready?" Long story short, here's some key things that will tell you if you're ready or not. Do you have strong product reviews? You know, are they generally above a four, 4.5? Is it products people actually want to talk about? Now, if you're selling me ice cubes, probably not. Maybe you can find a creator that does that. Or if you're selling like commodities like tires and things like that, probably not going to work. But if you're doing like wellness products, things that are really, you know, camera ready, creators want to talk about it, you will do fairly well.

Do you have an established marketplace presence? So if you are new to Amazon, it may not be the best option for you. You might want to consider things more like paid placements to drive guaranteed traffic over or a CPC model with certain types of creators because a lot of creators will shy away from working with brands that are brand new just because it's a high risk to them because they have to spend the money and time, their time to create content and that doesn't guarantee a conversion is going to happen. So that's why you might not see some creators that don't want to work with you if you're new.

Next up is your conversion rate. And this goes back to what John was talking about is making sure your page is optimized not only for AI but also for conversion. And this is really important for creators, too, because they're going to look to how much money that they can earn on working with you. They're a business just as much as you are, and their time is just as important as yours, and that's how they run their business. So you have to be a product and offering that is going to help them make money, too. And then next up is, are you competitive in your category?

Like is it is it super saturated? I we work really well with air purifiers and that's a very saturated product area, but a lot of the products on our platform do super well there. And are you willing to invest? Do you have the capital to do so? And these are some important things to look at. So I don't know if we have enough time to go through this. But long story short, I'm more than willing to share this deck with you. But I definitely wanted to leave time for Q&A. We will be leaving a link to the report which really dives into how affiliate is evolving now that AI is here.

There's this whole concept of zero click. And to kind of throw this out there real quick, I think it's really important. And I think even John would appreciate that is not only optimizing for your on-site for Amazon, but if you're multi marketplace, you sell through multiple channels, you know, working with creators, they're helping you get picked up in these LLMs and it's not costing you any additional dollars other than the sales that they drive you. So if you look at the domains that they're publishing on, so I know this is random, but LinkedIn is number two on that list.

But YouTube, Reddit is very big as well as Instagram starting to follow in some other areas. A lot of those places are being essentially indexed, sourced and then eventually cited and help you actually show up organically through channels like ChatGPT claude etc. And you're just this is just a compounding effect of your work working with creators. So highly recommend you start to think about it from that lens as well. But we'll drop the report. We are going to be hosting a round table in August where we want to bring a bunch of brands together to talk about how you protect your margins this season.

The holiday season I know it's going to be really tight. So I would recommend download the report because then you'll get an invite for that round table where it'll be open discussion among brands. All right, that's that's my pitch.

Panel discussion and audience questions

Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think those all tie together, right, around marketing, it's it's you know, looking at LTV and the channel you're using. And if you can figure out LTV and CAC, then you have you know, you can put your best foot forward and you know, go after those audiences. So, very cool, guys. I know we're almost up on time. I think there's been a couple of good questions. Marcelo, thank you for all the questions coming in there. You know, I saw an earlier question from Muhammad around like how is imp how is you know, how is AI really impacting service providers and agencies?

And I think, you know, that's obviously a really interesting world to unpack. You know, my opinion is it's going to impact some, but I think it just it really becomes it just pushes service providers and software developers and platforms to develop something even more valuable than just a UI or, you know, a showcase of results, right? And I think there's it's really interesting once you once you crack that, once you add in the layers of MCP connections and everything else, how much more powerful your technology and your software becomes. So, I think it's it's it's the world might be slightly different and harder for some, but I think it's going to create a lot of our technologies even more valuable and more powerful, which is great.

You know, I see a few questions here, Marcelo, we can we can probably maybe if you want to just address his Richie direct, you can on the on the chat there. I thought maybe just to end guys like you know this world of what you've talked about today are you seeing impact impacts in those areas from you know AI or specifically on Amazon like Alexa for Shopping and how AI is impacting that like for example strenth are you seeing in AMC you know are they starting to address that in some of their tracking and reporting in terms of you know the impact of conversation search or anything around there, you know, or you know, sponsored ads that are appearing in Alexa for Shopping.

Are they starting to really release you know, insights around that yet? U maybe that's an area or just you know in g from the AMC perspective, how do you see AI impacting that? And then I'll come to you Richie and I can talk to that as well. So maybe just one comment on that would be great and we can close it out. So thank you again everyone who participated. You know there's some good questions there. The links are in the chat here if you want to get access to those playbooks. And maybe start with you Shinath.

Yeah, I mean I think the signals from the shopping agents they're not yet in AMC. But the way they are evolving AMC where they are trying to make it the center of all measurement. And by the way AMC got looked at as some sort of a complement or an additional thing on the advertising side and thinking about it that way is a huge mistake at this point because it's got a lot more retail data in it. The answer questions you can answer go well beyond just ads. So short answer no not today but I don't see why they would not bring in those signals as those signals become clean and measurable for them.

I mean I think I was and in terms of AI and AMC they invested a lot in creating a natural language based query generation. Now it wasn't great when it started. It definitely got better but with most things around AI you still need to validate which means that yes it simplifies your job. You can just say, "Hey, go build me an audience that is that does ABC." But you still need to verify what it produced. So that's where what I would recommend is just building the muscle around what the heck is AMC. By the way, Amazon has a great free certification course.

You just type Amazon learning console and AMC. You'll see it. I would highly encourage everyone to go through that no matter what level in the org you are just so that you understand what's possible and you know what to ask. M very cool. Yeah, very cool. Richie, any comment around that and the lens of AI over your kind of specific area of affiliate partnerships and marketing?

Yeah, I mean overall on the AI side, it's like I kind of cliche what about to say is like it changes like daily. So every anything we say to you right now, I just heard this the other day from somebody else. This is not even my original comment, but like it's I feel like AI saying that, but like long story short is like this might even be relevant in a week. So constantly be trying to like stay on top of it and try to learn from other folks as much as possible. I know I'm trying to stay on top of that. I do want to quickly answer Marcelo's question if that's okay.

I see he's in there and I see Marcelo, I think you probably sell, I think if I've noticed correctly, is watches, Mito Swiss watches. So I know that's more of a premium product. So I there's a couple of ways on the approach of the strategy there. You can take the strategy of like, hey, I have a whole like you might not have a repeat purchase on the individual watches, but if you have other products within your offering that are maybe not watches, accessories, etc. Where you want to upsell them on those, I would definitely focus more on the unique economics of that individual piece or increase it with the hopes that they buy additional products in your catalog.

So, there's a couple approaches there, but I'm happy to reach out to you directly and talk more about that.

Awesome. Yeah. And I and I think from my side you know maybe the AI side of Alexa for Shopping you know obviously it's changing constantly in terms of the user experience and the customer journey of how they go through but at the end of the day it's measurement right and so how do you measure the impact of this channel and clearly there's nothing you know released by Amazon yet on that front and you know the typical AB testing of a listing is not going to test draw AI discoverability, right? And so you know this is an area that we're diving into a lot and we'll be releasing some cool things around measurements in the future.

But you know definitely as a baseline looking at sessions niche rank and conversion rate are the things that are helping you to understand like hey if I've if I've put something live that is optimized for the algorithm am I getting more discoverability across all the channels or does that look like that's going to help you see that price and PBC spend are equal right so you know it's always good to have that measurements in place and you'll see the increase in conversion rates and sessions and everything happen which is which is pretty cool. So that measurement of AI discoverability around conversational side and are you getting more recommendations because you now have put in place better by Q&A the answers to the questions right those are things that need to be fleshed out in a lot more detail and we have some cool stuff coming out on that so very cool guys thank you again for jumping on and sharing your insights you know we have we have a lot of registrations today and some live listeners and some good questions in.

Closing

But again, always encouraging everyone to bring more questions. This is a series that we showcase at least once a month where we bring our partners. If you want to hear more about it, you can sign up at our newsletter. We have a newsletter link. If it's not live here, we might include it in our post email on LinkedIn. We're always posting on there. So you can follow me, Jon Tilley, on LinkedIn and you'll see a bunch being posted there for future ones and certainly Shinath is very active there and Richie on LinkedIn. So follow them as well. And you know, just hear first because if you react first in this new world, you have the opportunity on your side, right?

And so we're all hustlers here, so let's let's make it happen. Thanks, guys. I appreciate it. Have a great day. We'll follow up with everything and everyone listening appreciate and good luck out there and finish the year strong. We'll catch you later.

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